JS : Neils Bohr himself notices the analogies between thoughts and quantum phenomena, and then David Bohm in his book written in 1950's when he was teaching Quantum Physics at University of Princeton has several paragraphs pointing out the analogies between thought processes and quantum phenomena.
JM : What are those analogies ?
JS : Well , the analogies re that umm..In quantum Theory, the world naturally seem to get divided into thought like things and rock like things, .. Like matter and non-matter. Now I'm gonna give the picture of Quantum reality according to David-Bohm .
JM : Which is in the same tradition as Einstein !?!?
JS : Which is [exactly] in the same tradition as Einstein. There are like two schisms in physics today between , Neils Bohr and Albert Einstein. Bohr and Einstein debated the meaning of Quantum Theory and they were never able to accommodate any agreement. The controversies still rages on today.
JM : It has to do with Einstein's famous quote that 'God does not play dice with the universe' .
JS : Exactly !! Einstein did not believe , lets put it this way … Bohr said God does play dice with the universe but that he uses a fair coin. 50-50. What is beginning to become clearer and clearer from my point of view is that to the extent that God does play dice with the universe , he loads the dice i.e. he plays unfair dice and the loading of the dice is our consciousness. Its where consciousness comes in.
JM : So, back to the original analogy between, what you sometimes call Level-2 of the Quantum Mechanical Level of(in) Thought.
JS : This is the universe according to Jack, the world according to Jack. Physical reality has got three levels. I'll call them Level 1, Level 2 and Level 3.
Level-1 is called the level of classical physics, it is what is called the ordinary physics..the automobiles and spacecrafts and things like that and If you wanna use David Bohm's language, David called it the Explicit Order. The outer order of things. It’s the space and time and matter as we normally perceive it. That’s Level-1 Classical Physics. Beneath Level-1 , there is level 2 called the Quantum reality. In quantum reality the thought like patterns of information are guiding the behavior of the level 1 material . Now these thought like patters of information, they are still physically felt, but their feel is beyond ordinary space and time. But they influence, they project into space and time. The influence space and time.
JM : They exist in hyperspace.
JS : Yeah they exist in hyperspace which is almost like a cyberspace. Its like a mind space.
JM : I mean that alone, to my way of thinking is such an extra-ordinary realization. The physicist are saying this higher dimensional hyperspace is as real as (knocks the chair)anything else(we normally see). Although its non-material.
JS : Its non material but its physically real and infact without this thought like space of information beneath the surface of things matter would not be hard, the hardness and stability of matter depends upon this thought like patterns that are beyond space and time which actually influence the structure of matter in space and time.
JM : And you make an interesting distinction that these thought like patterns, these quantum fields , I suppose we could call them technically the Schrödinger waves of quantum mechanics or the Psi Waves , but they are not conscious .
JS : No, they are not conscious yet , they are not conscious at level 2 . Now level 2 is also called by Bohm, the implicate order , something you have heard like Universe is a Hologram..the Holographic Universe and the things like that. That’s what it is the implicate order, but although the quantum properties of matter are thought like, they are still not conscious the way we are conscious. They are not self aware yet.
JM : I'm still a little unclear as to why they are thought like, is it simply because they are non material ?
JS : Well, that a part of it, but they are thought like for several reasons. They are thought like because they are beyond space and time, they are non-mechanistic . Which means they are non mechanistic , which means although they do influence matter but not in a kind of mechanistic push and pull force kind of way. Its like a force without a force. Its more of a telepathic influence. If you wanna think of it , think of it like in a popular way..like Force in the Star Wars.("Use the Force,Luke")
JM : Maybe its more like...a… probabilities , don’t you think.
JS : Look, I don’t wanna talk about probabilities, although lots of quantum physicists talk in terms of probabilities , but the important way to look at it like is the Bohm's way of looking at the Quantum World is that probability is the secondary thing. Its not Fundamental . Okay, Bohm's theory really deals with the weird properties of the individual systems and probability comes out a little later. Its like a superficial aspect to the world.
That’s why , see, Bohm was working with Einstein , and so for Bohm, God does not play dice with the universe because dice is again like a probability .
Even though probability plays a role but it is not the fundamental role in understanding how mind works
JM : Now you've introduced , you call Level 3 … which really goes beyond which physicists really talk about today and Bohm just barely eluded to it.
JS : Bohm just barely eluded to it. Level 3 is where the mind is. That's where consciousness is...in...my opinion, my Humble opinion. They say on the inter : IMHO (In My Humble Opinion). That’s the acronym. So, a...this the bog debate now, the really new thing in physics that whether the Level 3 exists. Now...a...I say it does exist. Bohm referred to it as the Super Implicate order.
So if Level 1 is the explicit order or the outer order, Level 2 of ordinary Quantum Reality is the implicate order , the inner order and Level 3 is something deeper, called the Super Implicate order and that’s where mind is. If I give it, the Mind of God, the mind of god.
JM : And so you , if I understand you correctly resolved the classic mind body problem of philosophy by suggesting that mind was sort of there from the beginning at Level 3.
JS : ABSOLUTELY ! Level 3 is the deepest Level of all, of all reality . And you can say that Level 1 and Level 2 just emerged out of the sentient Level 3 . It really is the conscious universe at the deepest level or the sentient universe which gets a source if/in Dean Radin's book...a...Paranormal...a...its called the conscious universe. I guess I'll give him the plug . (Laughs with JM). That is the picture
JM : So what you are saying is consistent in effect with the classical views of mystics of Almost all cultures ,i.e. That this reality of space and time and matter and objects and bodies sort of evolved from a super conscious realm .
JS : Absolutely yes. That the truth but I would like to call it mysticism without mysticism . Because there really is a technology inherent in this and its not just...a...vague poetry. You know its real physics that’s gonna have implications for our lives.
JM : And some of the implications for you, I know you are very interested in possibility of using these models to design and build conscious computer chips.
JS : Absolutely conscious computer chips. And that would be an application of Nanotechnology . A nanometer is like a billionth of a meter. Its at the level of a couple of atoms wide and we have reason to think from a theory… well not.. I guess observations a man named Stuart Hameroff who is an anaesthesiologist and professor at the University of Arizona discovered that inside the nerve cells are called the microtubule structures and they are nanotechnology level structures and there these little electrons inside the microtubules and the electrons control the shapes of protein molecules . These protein molecules could be like closed fist or open fist , just like a switch , like a switch on a computer. Just like a transistor on a computer. (binary 1 and 0). And it looks as though when we look at the sub-neuronal level of our nerve cells , it looks like a computing circuit. At the microtubule level . So the idea of the chip...of the conscious computing chip will be to use nanotechnology to simulate what is actually in our nerve cells. And if the theory is right , if there is Level 3 : post Quantum Physics I call it. If the theory is correct , we should make an artificial...the conscious computing device sort of like Commander Data's brain in Star Trek. That exactly what is. Its like conscious robots. They will be as conscious as humans.
JM : What are those analogies ?
JS : Well , the analogies re that umm..In quantum Theory, the world naturally seem to get divided into thought like things and rock like things, .. Like matter and non-matter. Now I'm gonna give the picture of Quantum reality according to David-Bohm .
JM : Which is in the same tradition as Einstein !?!?
JS : Which is [exactly] in the same tradition as Einstein. There are like two schisms in physics today between , Neils Bohr and Albert Einstein. Bohr and Einstein debated the meaning of Quantum Theory and they were never able to accommodate any agreement. The controversies still rages on today.
JM : It has to do with Einstein's famous quote that 'God does not play dice with the universe' .
JS : Exactly !! Einstein did not believe , lets put it this way … Bohr said God does play dice with the universe but that he uses a fair coin. 50-50. What is beginning to become clearer and clearer from my point of view is that to the extent that God does play dice with the universe , he loads the dice i.e. he plays unfair dice and the loading of the dice is our consciousness. Its where consciousness comes in.
JM : So, back to the original analogy between, what you sometimes call Level-2 of the Quantum Mechanical Level of(in) Thought.
JS : This is the universe according to Jack, the world according to Jack. Physical reality has got three levels. I'll call them Level 1, Level 2 and Level 3.
Level-1 is called the level of classical physics, it is what is called the ordinary physics..the automobiles and spacecrafts and things like that and If you wanna use David Bohm's language, David called it the Explicit Order. The outer order of things. It’s the space and time and matter as we normally perceive it. That’s Level-1 Classical Physics. Beneath Level-1 , there is level 2 called the Quantum reality. In quantum reality the thought like patterns of information are guiding the behavior of the level 1 material . Now these thought like patters of information, they are still physically felt, but their feel is beyond ordinary space and time. But they influence, they project into space and time. The influence space and time.
JM : They exist in hyperspace.
JS : Yeah they exist in hyperspace which is almost like a cyberspace. Its like a mind space.
JM : I mean that alone, to my way of thinking is such an extra-ordinary realization. The physicist are saying this higher dimensional hyperspace is as real as (knocks the chair)anything else(we normally see). Although its non-material.
JS : Its non material but its physically real and infact without this thought like space of information beneath the surface of things matter would not be hard, the hardness and stability of matter depends upon this thought like patterns that are beyond space and time which actually influence the structure of matter in space and time.
JM : And you make an interesting distinction that these thought like patterns, these quantum fields , I suppose we could call them technically the Schrödinger waves of quantum mechanics or the Psi Waves , but they are not conscious .
JS : No, they are not conscious yet , they are not conscious at level 2 . Now level 2 is also called by Bohm, the implicate order , something you have heard like Universe is a Hologram..the Holographic Universe and the things like that. That’s what it is the implicate order, but although the quantum properties of matter are thought like, they are still not conscious the way we are conscious. They are not self aware yet.
JM : I'm still a little unclear as to why they are thought like, is it simply because they are non material ?
JS : Well, that a part of it, but they are thought like for several reasons. They are thought like because they are beyond space and time, they are non-mechanistic . Which means they are non mechanistic , which means although they do influence matter but not in a kind of mechanistic push and pull force kind of way. Its like a force without a force. Its more of a telepathic influence. If you wanna think of it , think of it like in a popular way..like Force in the Star Wars.("Use the Force,Luke")
JM : Maybe its more like...a… probabilities , don’t you think.
JS : Look, I don’t wanna talk about probabilities, although lots of quantum physicists talk in terms of probabilities , but the important way to look at it like is the Bohm's way of looking at the Quantum World is that probability is the secondary thing. Its not Fundamental . Okay, Bohm's theory really deals with the weird properties of the individual systems and probability comes out a little later. Its like a superficial aspect to the world.
That’s why , see, Bohm was working with Einstein , and so for Bohm, God does not play dice with the universe because dice is again like a probability .
Even though probability plays a role but it is not the fundamental role in understanding how mind works
JM : Now you've introduced , you call Level 3 … which really goes beyond which physicists really talk about today and Bohm just barely eluded to it.
JS : Bohm just barely eluded to it. Level 3 is where the mind is. That's where consciousness is...in...my opinion, my Humble opinion. They say on the inter : IMHO (In My Humble Opinion). That’s the acronym. So, a...this the bog debate now, the really new thing in physics that whether the Level 3 exists. Now...a...I say it does exist. Bohm referred to it as the Super Implicate order.
So if Level 1 is the explicit order or the outer order, Level 2 of ordinary Quantum Reality is the implicate order , the inner order and Level 3 is something deeper, called the Super Implicate order and that’s where mind is. If I give it, the Mind of God, the mind of god.
JM : And so you , if I understand you correctly resolved the classic mind body problem of philosophy by suggesting that mind was sort of there from the beginning at Level 3.
JS : ABSOLUTELY ! Level 3 is the deepest Level of all, of all reality . And you can say that Level 1 and Level 2 just emerged out of the sentient Level 3 . It really is the conscious universe at the deepest level or the sentient universe which gets a source if/in Dean Radin's book...a...Paranormal...a...its called the conscious universe. I guess I'll give him the plug . (Laughs with JM). That is the picture
JM : So what you are saying is consistent in effect with the classical views of mystics of Almost all cultures ,i.e. That this reality of space and time and matter and objects and bodies sort of evolved from a super conscious realm .
JS : Absolutely yes. That the truth but I would like to call it mysticism without mysticism . Because there really is a technology inherent in this and its not just...a...vague poetry. You know its real physics that’s gonna have implications for our lives.
JM : And some of the implications for you, I know you are very interested in possibility of using these models to design and build conscious computer chips.
JS : Absolutely conscious computer chips. And that would be an application of Nanotechnology . A nanometer is like a billionth of a meter. Its at the level of a couple of atoms wide and we have reason to think from a theory… well not.. I guess observations a man named Stuart Hameroff who is an anaesthesiologist and professor at the University of Arizona discovered that inside the nerve cells are called the microtubule structures and they are nanotechnology level structures and there these little electrons inside the microtubules and the electrons control the shapes of protein molecules . These protein molecules could be like closed fist or open fist , just like a switch , like a switch on a computer. Just like a transistor on a computer. (binary 1 and 0). And it looks as though when we look at the sub-neuronal level of our nerve cells , it looks like a computing circuit. At the microtubule level . So the idea of the chip...of the conscious computing chip will be to use nanotechnology to simulate what is actually in our nerve cells. And if the theory is right , if there is Level 3 : post Quantum Physics I call it. If the theory is correct , we should make an artificial...the conscious computing device sort of like Commander Data's brain in Star Trek. That exactly what is. Its like conscious robots. They will be as conscious as humans.